WP:CFD/T

See Wikipedia:Categories for deletion policies for the official rules of this page, and how to do cleanup.

Deletion of a category may mean that the articles and images in it are directly put in its parent category, or that another subdivision of the parent category is made. If they are already members of more suitable categories, it may also mean that they become a member of one category less.

How to use this page

Know if the category you are looking at needs deleting (or to be created). If it is a "red link" and has no articles or subcategories, then it is already deleted (more likely, it was never really created in the first place), and does not need to be listed here.
Read and understand Wikipedia:Categorization before using this page. Nominate categories that violate policies here, or are misspelled, mis-capitalized, redundant/need to be merged, not NPOV, small without potential for growth, or are generally bad ideas. (See also Wikipedia:Naming conventions and Wikipedia:Manual of Style.)
Please read the Wikipedia:Categorization of people policy if nominating or voting on a people-related category.
Unless the category to be deleted is non-controversial – vandalism or a duplicate, for example – please do not depopulate the category (remove the tags from articles) before the community has made a decision.
Add {{cfd}} to the category page for deletion. (If you are recommending that the category be renamed, you may also add a note giving the suggested new name.) This will add a message to it, and also put the page you are nominating into Category:Categories for deletion. It's important to do this to help alert people who are watching or browsing the category.
1. Alternately, use the rename template like this: {{cfr|newname}}
2. If you are concerned with a stub category, make sure to inform the WikiProject Stub sorting
Add new deletion candidates under the appropriate day near the top of this page.
1. Alternatively, if the category is a candidate for speedy renaming (see Wikipedia:Category renaming), add it to the speedy category at the bottom.
Make sure you add a colon (:) in the link to the category being listed, like [[:Category:Foo]]. This makes the category link a hard link which can be seen on the page (and avoids putting this page into the category you are nominating).
Sign any listing or vote you make by typing ~~~~ after your text.
Link both categories to delete and categories to merge into. Failure to do this will delay consideration of your suggestion.

Special notes

Some categories may be listed in Category:Categories for deletion but accidently not listed here.

Discussion for Today

This page is transcluded from Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024_September_30

September 30

NEW NOMINATIONS

Category:Labor disputes in Luxembourg

Propose deleting Category:Labor disputes in Luxembourg (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Nominator's rationale: Only article in this category is about a trade union not a specific dispute and which is already appropriately categorised. AusLondonder (talk) 06:02, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:18, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Labor disputes in Vatican City

Propose deleting Category:Labor disputes in Vatican City (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Nominator's rationale: Only article in this category is Association of Vatican Lay Workers, which is about a trade union not a specific dispute and which is already appropriately categorised. AusLondonder (talk) 05:52, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:19, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Jewish American legal scholars

Propose merging Category:Jewish American legal scholars to Category:Jewish American academics
Propose merging Category:Jewish legal scholars to Category:Jewish scholars

Nominator's rationale: We really don't need to intersection ethnicity/religion with area of scholarship. The category creator needs to review WP:EGRS.Mason (talk) 03:45, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Merge, trivial intersection. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:09, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - Oy veh. All I can say is, "trivial intersection" my tuchus. Please excuse my French, I mean Yiddish. ;)

Seriously, though - are you guys totally unaware that Jewish legal scholarship stretches back centuries? (Actually, millenia.) It is deeply embedded in Jewish culture, outlook and ethos - and intertwined with Western legal history. So it's not in the least surprising that there are so many Jewish people among the ranks of Category:American legal scholars - and that so many of the most well-known and widely cited American legal scholars are Jewish.

Here is a small selection of the "google blurbs" that turned up when I googled "Jewish legal scholars history", which should give you a sense of what I'm alluding to:

Jewish Law and American Law, Volume 2 - Academic Studies Press

Through careful comparative analysis, the essays also turn to Jewish law to provide insights into substantive and conceptual areas of the American legal system, ...

The Hebrews and the Foundation of Western Law

Starting as early as the second century A.D., Jewish scholars attempted to compile a code of laws from the Torah and other sources, which would assemble all ...

The Hidden Influence of Jewish Law on the Common Law Tradition

As Christian scholars sought contacts with Jewish intellectuals in order to...

Jewish Law: A Very Brief Account - David D. Friedman

Jewish law may be the best recorded legal system in the history of the world; there are hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions, of pages of surviving ...

Oxford University Press - An Introduction to the History and Sources of Jewish Law

Jewish law has a history stretching from the early period to the modern State of Israel, encompassing: the Talmud, Geonic, and later codifications. // :Instead, the work would take a broader view and include material from the Dead Sea Scrolls, Hellenistic Egypt, Roman law, the Samaritans and the Karaites

Jewish Law Research Guide | University of Miami School of Law

The Post-Talmudic legal scholars are separated into three historical sub-periods: geonim (700-1050), reshonim (1050-1599), and aharonim (1600-today).

In closing, I've now added 15 more articles to this category, and there are scores more that can be added. Which reminds me: I also created Category:African-American legal scholars a few years back, which now has 42 articles. Like their Jewish counterparts, they bring their own outlook and ethos with them when they engage in legal scholarship. And lastly, I just created the "missing" parent cat, Category:Jewish legal scholars. There are scores of articles about non-American Jewish legal scholars waiting to be added. Anomalous+0 (talk) 11:34, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Request:Please review Wikipedia:Categorizing articles about people. It will help you make more effective arguments. Also please don't create categories mid-cfd. I've adding the newly created category to the nomination. AND, please don't conflate Israeli legal scholars with Jewish legal scholars. I am aware of the intersection, but I do not think it counts at the intersetion of nationality+those things. @Anomalous+0 and Marcocapelle: per updated nom. Mason (talk) 15:49, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Merge per nom. I also agree with the Israeli/Jewish conflation. Being Israeli doesn't mean a person is Jewish and vice versa. We should avoid that. Omnis Scientia (talk) 19:17, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Smasongarrison, I just noticed that you're merging Category:Jewish legal scholars into itself. May need to fix that! Omnis Scientia (talk) 09:09, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
oops! Should be to the parent categoryMason (talk) 12:00, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Merge The "American" aspect makes this a trivial intersection. (t · c) buidhe 21:20, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oh dear. I damn sure messed up when I inadvertently added added "Israeli legal scholars" as a subcat - instead of making it a See also link, as I intended - which is how I have >always< handled that sort of thing over the years. I was totally wiped out when I made those edits - I bungled it twice, actually, and I'm still shaking my head about it! In any event, I have rectified the mistake.

Back to the issue at hand: Why have you all completely ignored the argument I presented showing the very clear pertinence of Jewish legal scholarship? Not a single editor has responded in any way to the case I've made. Regards, Anomalous+0 (talk) 14:51, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. The criterion in WP:EGRS is: "combination is itself recognized as a defining topic that has already been established (in reliable sources showing substantial existing research specific to the topic." The sources you cite above are about Jewish law, which is certainly a significant topic, but not legal scholars who happen to be American Jews. Btw, some of your sources could be used to create a section in the Jewish law article about its influence in Western law, if not an article itself. Kol tuv, ProfGray (talk) 15:22, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. For what it's worth, there are reliable sources that recognize "Jewish lawyers" (or legal scholars) as a defining topic. I don't know why there's no category, maybe it's been proposed and deleted in the past. Sources include:

Hornblass, Jerome. "The Jewish Lawyer." Cardozo L. Rev. 14 (1992): 1639.
Auerbach, Jerold S. "From Rags to Robes: The Legal Profession, Social Mobility and the American Jewish Experience." American Jewish Historical Quarterly 66, no. 2 (1976): 249-284.
Rabbis and Lawyers: The Journey from Torah to Constitution [book], Jerold S. Auerbach
Auerbach, Jerold S. "Prophets or Profits? Liberal Lawyers and Jewish Tradition." Judaism 36, no. 3 (1987): 360.
Simone Ladwig-Winters, (2018) Lawyers Without Rights: The Fate of Jewish Lawyers in Berlin After 1933
Fagen, Melvin M. "The Status of Jewish Lawyers in New York City: A Preliminary Report on a Study Made by the Conference on Jewish Relations." Jewish Social Studies (1939): 73-104.
Wald, Eli. "Jewish Lawyers and the US Legal Profession: The End of the Affair?." Touro L. Rev. 36 (2020): 299.
Greisman, Israel M. "The Jewish Criminal Lawyer's Dilemma." Fordham Urb. LJ 29 (2001): 2413.
Asimow, Michael. "Jewish Lawyers in American Popular Culture." Va. Sports & Ent. LJ 21 (2022): 1.
Sarna, Jonathan D. "Two Jewish Lawyers Named Louis." American Jewish History 94, no. 1 (2008): 1-19.
Meniconi, Antonella. "The expulsion of Jewish lawyers from the legal profession." Razza e: 99.
Jarausch, Konrad H. "Jewish Lawyers in Germany, 1848–1938: the Disintegration of a Profession." The Leo Baeck Institute Yearbook 36, no. 1 (1991): 171-190.
De Benedetti, Paola. "Jewish lawyers at the Court of Turin." Razza e: 153.
Shamir, Ronen. "Nation-building and colonialism: The case of Jewish lawyers in Palestine." International Journal of the Legal Profession 8, no. 2 (2001): 109-123.
Kuhne, Gunther. "The Impact of German Jewish Jurists on German Law until 1933 and Their Immigration Thereafter to the US, Israel, and Other Countries." Tel Aviv U. Stud. L. 15 (2000): 67.

However, rather than create a category, why not create an article with this material? Expand from these few sentences: History of the American legal profession#Jewish lawyers. Thanks. ProfGray (talk) 15:38, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks @ProfGray for breaking down the issue as well as wading through the wall of text! I think your suggestion to make a page is very constructive! @Anomalous+0 please keep your arguments more concise if you want editors to address them on the specifics. Mason (talk) 12:14, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. @Mason, would it be reasonable to rename (Move) the Category:Jewish American legal scholars to a new Category:Jewish American lawyers, as a subset of Category:American lawyers by ethnicity? As shown with source above, this combination is a defining topic, though it only has an article section and not a full article yet. (I'm not sure if there's enough for Jewish lawyers in general, though examples of De Benedetti, Meniconi, Shamir, Kuhne above would be relevant.)

Btw, there's also List of Jewish American jurists. Does this article imply that there's a defining topic for a category by this name? Thanks, ProfGray (talk) 12:40, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Thoughts on ProfGray's rename suggestion?
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, House Blaster (talk • he/they) 02:44, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Things in the United States that were built by slaves

Convert Category:Things in the United States that were built by slaves to article Things in the United States that were built by slaves

Nominator's rationale: Unforuntely, I don't think that this is defining because these "things" aren't regularlly defined as built by slaves Mason (talk) 00:28, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete, possibly listify per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:49, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If converted to a list, article should be named Structures in the United States built by slaves. "Things" is so vague. Omnis Scientia (talk) 13:07, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Listify? If we are listifying, what should the list be called?
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, House Blaster (talk • he/they) 02:35, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:American people who self-identify as being of Native American descent

Propose deleting Category:American people who self-identify as being of Native American descent (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Nominator's rationale: Failed verification and WP:NONDEF issues. I checked several articles at random and most do not support the source of the claim of Native American descent being "self-identification" or that the individuals have not "shared proof of this heritage" (proof is not mentioned). The insinuation here is that these people are not genuinely of Native American descent but sources don't support (or contradict) that. As for some self-sourced claims of descent being false, that is true for all other types of descent but we justifiably don't have Category:People who self-identify as being of Sephardic Jewish descent. Furthermore, people saying "I'm Native American" in an interview, if they lack a genuine connection to Native American culture, is never going to meet the standard for categorization in WP:NONDEF. (t · c) buidhe 21:19, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Buidhe, ~~I agree that these should be deleted per nom but definitely nominate all the subcategories too.~~ Per the below discussion, I'm changing my vote to neutral for now. Was not aware of a previous discussion on this. Omnis Scientia (talk) 21:59, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Procedural oppose. This was the subject of a very long CFD, the contributors of which should be pinged. Mason (talk) 22:49, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't realize that there had been a prior CfD but the result is hard to reconcile with the P&G. Seems like a better solution to the identified problem might to be enforcing existing wp:defining rules or even eliminating Native American categories by descent that aren't for registered tribal members. The situation as it is now feels like Wikipedia trying to decide who is proven to be a real Native American or not—which the sources, in the vast majority of cases, don't allow us to do. (t · c) buidhe 02:54, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Furthermore, it's unclear to me what differentiates this category tree from the People of Native American descent tree. Articles like Tiffany Darwish seem like they could be placed into either. What type of source is required to declare Native American identity "proven" rather than a mater of "self-identification"? (t · c) buidhe 02:59, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that almost all articles in the category fail verification as it is currently drafted. This is a problematic category, especially for BLPs. It is a subcat of Category:American people who self-identify as being of Indigenous descent, which makes the stronger claim that the indivudals have no proof of the heritage. (Previous parent categories put everyone in this category under Category:Native American cultural appropriation and Category:Transracial (identity), but those at least have been removed.) It is of limited use to have a category that groups together known frauds, people who have a genuine but incorrect belief that they have Indigenous ancestry, and people who do have Indigenous ancestry but a particular standard of proof hasn't been found in reliable sources.--Trystan (talk) 04:32, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Procedural oppose per Mason. There was very fierce opposition at the time. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:53, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: I will ping all participants at the previous CFD. I will also note (without comment) that since the previous discussion, ArbCom has passed a motion stating that Mark Ironie and CorbieVreccan (who both participated in the prior CFD) are to be considered a single user.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, House Blaster (talk • he/they) 02:28, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Brandmeister, CorbieVreccan, Dimadick, Indigenous girl, Jjj1238, Koavf, Marcocapelle, Mark Ironie, Moxy, Namiba, Place Clichy, Qwerfjkl, RevelationDirect, TheMainLogan, ValarianB, and Yuchitown: Pinging previous participants, regardless of participation in the above discussion. I have no opinion on the merits of the proposal. House Blaster (talk • he/they) 02:32, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose deletion the category was created because of the very specific and nuanced differences between claiming Native American heritage and claiming any other kind of heritage. There are numerous cases (as the amount of articles in the category suggests) where an individual's claim to Native American ancestry is relevant enough for inclusion, but they are not considered to be Native American by the Native American community because of the aforementioned nuances that exist here. { [ ( jjj 1238 ) ] } 02:39, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This comment does not engage with the deletion argument at all and should be disregarded by the closer. Unless there is more clarity about how the two sets of categories are distinguished in reliable sources and how we can verifiably distinguish them, there is no basis for categorization. You also haven't explained how people in this category meets the defining criteria. I wonder if there is even any evidence in reliable sources that native American heritage (as opposed to being an actual tribal member) is somehow distinct from all other ethnicities that it requires a different categorization scheme (t · c) buidhe 03:40, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Yes, this is often defining and also Native American is a unique political classification in the United States, not an ethnicity. Yuchitown (talk) 04:34, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Lighthouse of Alexandria

Propose deleting Category:Lighthouse of Alexandria (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Nominator's rationale: delete, not a defining characteristic of the articles in this category. It rather is a "what links here" collection. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:07, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per nom. Omnis Scientia (talk) 08:51, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose It covers the lighthouse's architect Sostratus of Cnidus, its destruction in the 1303 Crete earthquake, several attempts at duplication, and depictions in fiction. Dimadick (talk) 05:10, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

1303 Crete earthquake is a good example, its epicenter wasn't in Egypt, it caused damage all over Crete and Egypt. Lighthouse of Alexandria really isn't a defining characteristic of this earthquake. This applies similarly to the other articles. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:54, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comment A majority of the (now-13) articles should be removed, or moved to a new Cultural depictions of the Lighthouse of Alexandria if consensus for such a category exists. I'm not sure there will be more than 3 articles left when that is done. Walsh90210 (talk) 19:59, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Thoughts on the suggestion for a Category:Cultural depictions of the Lighthouse of Alexandria? If that happens, should we also delete this category?
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, House Blaster (talk • he/they) 23:56, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: See above relisting comment.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, House Blaster (talk • he/they) 02:19, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Church of Sweden clergymen in Colonial North America

Propose merging Category:Church of Sweden clergymen in Colonial North America to Category:American Lutheran clergy

Nominator's rationale: This category is extremely narrow. I think it should either be merged to 17th/18th century American Lutheran clergy or renamed to Church of Sweden clergy from the Thirteen Colonies Mason (talk) 03:28, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If not kept then delete, because all articles are already in Category:17th-century American Lutheran clergy or Category:18th-century American Lutheran clergy. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:15, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep as Church of Sweden clergy from the Thirteen Colonies; much better than my original. Creuzbourg (talk) 13:33, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, House Blaster (talk • he/they) 02:13, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Timex Datalink

Propose deleting Category:Timex Datalink (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Nominator's rationale: There's only one page in here along with 8 images that are hosted on Wikimedia commons. Mason (talk) 02:06, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:People of Mexican side in the Texas Revolution

Propose renaming Category:People of Mexican side in the Texas Revolution to Category:Mexican people of the Texas Revolution

Nominator's rationale: The current name sounds awkward and is confusing/inconsistent Mason (talk) 01:53, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Technically both sides were Mexican people when the revolution started. Perhaps Category:Pro-Mexico people of the Texas Revolution? Marcocapelle (talk) 06:47, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Thoughts on Marcocapelle's suggestion?
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, House Blaster (talk • he/they) 01:36, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Cercle Brugge templates

Propose renaming Category:Cercle Brugge templates to Category:Cercle Brugge K.S.V. templates

Nominator's rationale: match naming of parent category Microwave Anarchist (talk) 00:40, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]